THE GREAT DEBATE:
WERE OCS GRADS CANNON FODDER?
FOs participating in the discussion
Background: Using a "sample survey" of the Lieutenants who served as Forward Observers with the 2/9th, one might conclude that there was a move afoot to send OCS Artillery grads into the teeth of combat in Vietnam. The "scorecard" comparison was: OCS - 46 ROTC - 11 True? False? Maybe?
Here are some views of both ROTC and OCS grads. {It is assumed that the West Pointers wanted to advance their careers.}
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Lt Dennis Dauphin - PROTECTING THE ROTC INVESTMENT
You probably know my position: The Pentagon had too much invested in the ROTC program and its graduates. Their goal was to get some/many to stay on for a career. Further, as (OCS) FO Don Keith can testify, he had to bust his balls to get into the "Bootstrap Program" (college-paid option) because his military career would be non-existent if he didn't get the mighty sheepskin. In other words, completing OCS, going to Nam, and coming home would not qualify an OCS grad for a military career. In fact, Don had to bargain for a 2nd Tour in Nam in order to get a ride to a college diploma. It "appears" that Arty ROTC lieutenants somehow stayed stateside. PS> I've written two (2) War Stories {"OH, BROTHER WHERE ART THOU?" and "THE OTHER REASON"} whereby I "tweaked the nose of authority" and could have earned my ticket to Nam. Of course, that could be viewed as a little paranoid.
---Webmaster
FO Lt Dennis Dauphin (ROTC)
Lt
Joe Hanigan - GETTING
OUT OF OKLAHOMA
It looks like your original question / theory has been answered- that is that there were more OCS guys humping the boonies as FOs than ROTC guys- by a sizeable margin based on your sampling size. How that came to be is way more difficult to answer, and not having any experience how the people at the Pentagon who handled branch assignments operated makes any attempt to answer highly speculative. I don't know if other branches, Infantry in particular, would show a similar tendency. I suppose one could make the case that OCS guys were so relieved to escape from Ft Sill that anyplace that had trees, rice paddies, mountains and a shoreline would be better than OK. The vast majority of my OCS class had been there for AIT (13E) so had spent 8 months in that paradise. Maybe we just weren't as bright as ROTC grads. Please discuss.
-FO Lt Joe Hannigan (OCS)
Lt Bert Landau - INCREDIBLE IMBALANCE
The
incredible imbalance between ROTC and OCS graduates out in the field staggers
the imagination! Coming from ROTC, I was immediately told how I could never be
equivalent to Ring Knockers but didn't believe it.
Were
officer assignments in the battery [non FOs] reflective of the same imbalance?
FO Lt Bert Landau (ROTC)
Lt Ed Thomas - THEY WENT TO EUROPE
Interesting reading. Just wanted to comment on 2 things that started the whole discussion:Lt (Gary) Dean Springer - THEY LOADED UP THE OCS CLASSES; FEWER REJECTS
FO Lt Carlton Epps - WEST POINT GETS PREFERENCE; ROTC DECLINES; OCS LEFT
FO Lt Mike Kurtgis - DIDN'T DUMP THE OCS CANDIDATES
Hey
Dean, I think you are spot on in your analysis. Just looking at the numbers, 1967
was a banner year for newly- minted Butter Bars of which I was one being class
33A - 67. They threatened, but did not get rid of, many.
FO
Lt Mike Kurtgis (OCS)
FO Lt Dave Whaley - COULDN'T GET INTO COLLEGE
I
wasn't able to get college from the Army under ANY circumstances. I
finished my degree in night school and took the LSAT, scored in the top 5 per
cent of the US and left the Army for law school (got offered Harvard but
couldn't cut the $ 50K a year fee) at SMU. I wasn't the only one.
FO Lt Dave Whaley (OCS)
FO Lt James Deloney - FLUNK AND GRADUATE ANYWAY
Great
job, Dennis, as always. Great to read all of your comments. David
Whaley replaced me after my first stint as FO.
I
graduated from FAOCS in the Class of 9-65 after I set an "academic
record". I flunked both gunnery and communications and still
graduated. The MSG who served as our TAC 1SG congratulated me on
being the first FAOCS grad ever that he knew of that flunked both gunnery and
commo. Just before I was due to graduate, they ordered me to report to the
OCS Commandant, a LTC Marvel. He would decide if I would
graduate or take a 4-week academic setback. On the way to his office I
decided that I would be very positive no matter what when I reported to him.
His first question to me was whether or not I thought I could run a FDC. I
responded very firmly, "Yes sir, no problem, sir." He said,
"Very well candidate, go ahead and graduate." That was it.
Just that simple. So I did graduate.
My
first assignment after OCS was to Ft. Benning to Jump School, and then straight
on to the 164th MI BN at Ft. Bragg, N.C. DA kept me at Ft. Bragg
for one year and then sent me to Vietnam. You guessed it, I never
spent a day in an artillery, or combat arms, unit before Vietnam.
Enroute from Bragg to Vietnam they sent me to Jungle School where I made
Jungle Expert, which was easy having grown up in the woods and swamps of
Louisiana.
Upon
arrival in Vietnam, I was sent out as an FO with Company "B",
1/14th Infantry
on the Cambodian border (Aug
66).
We made an air assault into a swamp, so I felt right at home again. Spent
5 months at this job. Our BnCO, LtCol Bruce Holbrook, offered me two jobs
so I could come out of the field. His first offer was Btry XO, which
I turned down. Told him that job would be too confining, so I'd just stay
out with the infantry where the action was. It was. Then he offered
me the BN MAINT OFF slot. I told him he was going from "bad to
worse" with his offers. My response made him a little hot. He
asked me, "What the hell do you want?" So I told him AO. A
little while later he offered me the AO slot, which I gladly accepted. He
let me serve as AO for five months, 180 missions. By then the 3rd
BDE/25 INF DIV was on the coast of the South China Sea. When I hit ten
months in country, Holbrook called me in again and told me he was
going to have to send me back out with a rifle company. Said that the
butter bars had screwed up so badly that the infantry didn't even want to use
our fire support, so he wanted me to turn that around even though I was a 1LT by
then. So I did. Oh, I found out in recent years that my old
friend Dennis Munden took my AO slot away from me. Dennis pulled the same
crap that I did to get the job.
During
that last two months with the infantry rifle company, the Infantry Company
Commander wrote me a Letter
of Commendation for getting artillery fire (105 battery) on the enemy that fired on us in
less than one minute after they started firing at our rifle company. How? First
thing in the morning I'd call in a fire mission, do not load, one smoke round,
out in front of our direction of march. Then I'd give corrections all
day in our direction of march. Kept the firing battery busy.
When the enemy fire hit us, I just said "load and
fire." TOF (time of flight) was only 13 seconds. The smoke
round hit the enemy's position, so I said, "Battery one round
HE." That firing battery was fast as lightning. You guys can
easily picture how fast they could slam those smoke/HE rounds in the tubes and
fire. Those poor bastards firing at us didn't know what the hell hit them
so fast, so they stopped firing, and left the area (hauled ass in other words).
of this is said just to show that I pretty much determined my own course the
first ten months in Vietnam after my first FO assignment. The last
two months, according to Holbrook, in the field was because I was his most
experienced FO/AO at that time having directed support fire for ten months
straight. While on the coast, I had seven fire support units that I could
call in at one time, and did several times, both from the air and on the
ground. When calling seven units of support fire from the air at the same
time while circling over the target, getting the direction of fire and
time of flight correct was vital if you didn't want to shoot yourself down.
Having served as FO/AO never bothered me. In fact, I have always felt very
fortunate, and blessed, having had that opportunity (and survived without a
scratch).
It
seems that us OCS grads talked more about the West Point grads than the ROTC officers.
The saying was that you could always spot a West Point officer because when he
picked his nose you could see his West Point ring. When the RIF's hit, it
appeared that the West Point, and ROTC, guys got the better end of that
deal. Of course that was due to the differences in the commissions we
received when commissioned as officers.
All
of you guys take care.
FO Lt James A. Deloney (OCS)
FO Lt Don Blankin - WHERE WERE THEY? ANY OF THEM??
This is interesting stuff. I graduated from OCS in Sept. of 67. I already had an MOS of 11B. My class 33-67 was the first (I believe) to choose either field artillery or ADA. I’m sure "choose" is a bad term. I knew when I graduated that I was going to Vietnam within a year. It was on my orders and we were told that every day. In April of 68, I was assigned to the ROTC summer camp as the Assistant Adjutant. I was the only 2nd Lt. on the staff. The cadets were almost all older than me and they avoided contact with me usually. I was told by the Camp Commander early on that I should be an example for the soon to be Officers. I did 5 months as a FO in Vietnam. The Army ran out of Lts. for replacements in late 68. At one point I was the only FO in the Battalion. My first replacement was a ROTC graduate with a degree in Electronics, he told me he would never be a FO because he had a branch transfer for the Signal Corp pending. He got it and away he went. My second replacement was another ROTC guy and he was promoted to Captain before his boots got dirty and away he went. I took the FDO job in Feb. of 69 with still no replacement in place. I met a ROTC Lt. from Divarty that was DEROS-ing and had never been a FO or assigned to a firing Battery. Something was wrong with the system. We had 1st. Lt. LNO’s and in staff positions and firing batteries with no FDO’s or full time XO’s. Myself and Lt. Owen and Lt. Stout left the 2/9 together in Aug of 69 and there was no Lts anywhere for replacements. Being a FO in late 68 - early 69 was like being in purgatory. Where did they all go? A lot of Arty guys were assigned to MAAG as Lts in advisory jobs. More of my classmates did this than filled FO slots. In Sept. of 68 myself, Kurtgis, Stout, Owen and Fulkerson were the 2/9th FO’s. Fulkerson was WP and the rest of us were OCS. Wallin replaced Kurtgis and he was OCS. I replaced Fulkerson when he was KIA. I left A/2/35 without a FO to go to C/2/35. I’m sure the Army thought they had everything covered but clearly something was amiss with assignments. My OCS class had 6 KIA’s in Vietnam. None were killed as FO’s. It seems most of my classmates became pilots. One classmate made it to full Colonel after a branch change to JAG. The OCS guys were supposed to be the answer for Jr. Officer slots and there wasn’t enough to go around even if you added ROTC and Military Colleges to the mix. You guys are the best, my favorite call sign was Boston Capon, go figure where that came from!!....PEACE.
FO Lt Donnie Blankin (OCS)
FO Lt Bert Landau - ANOTHER THEORY....MONKEYS AT THE CONTROLS
It
may not be such command related insidiousness as it sounds. There could be a
small group of monkeys operating the officer assignments for the entire
artillery branch without much understanding or guidance from on high. For
a while [2-3 years], I ran the officer assignments desk for STRATCOM - The US
Army Strategic Communications Command. No one either reviewed or questioned my
assignments but I was the single-handled person who made all officer assignments
world wide for the entire Communications Command, world wide up to grade O6.
Sure, every once in a while, the CG or Deputy CG would call me and order a
change for a specific officer.....sometimes good; most of the time, not.
I
think no one bothered to question my judgment because the prior 5 person group
that handled it before my arrival did it all manually,